AUDIO FILE---PROVVIDENZA (LA MANNA) IANNARINO

This transcript is of a tape recorded by Provvidenza La Manna, answering questions proposed by one of her granddaughters.

Question--Tell me again how you met grandpa? You were telling me a Christmastime, how he came to this country and how you met him.

Grandma--.Oh, How I met him. Well, we didn't know each other. That 's one thing. He was in this country. He came when he was 12 yrs old. His father was in this country ,see, and his mother had 8 boys and one girl. So her husband came first. And as her boys grew up, little by little he sent for them, he sent for each one of them. One year he sent for the oldest boy, then the other boys and he put them to work--the boys were young, the boys-12 years old, 14yrs old. but he was in the food business. He was a huckster, in the food business. He used to give the boys a basket of oranges and say--go sell it. His kids didn't even know how to say "yes" so he used to tell them what to say--2 for a nickel or a nickel a piece or something. They used to knock at the door and say "do you want to buy oranges, maam?" "Maam." I say "maam", maybe they didn't know how to say "maam". Anyhow, my husband, he had other brothers. He had two brothers who were married and they brought their wives here. Then when my husband come he was 12 yrs old, but his father was here and lived with the daughter-in-law. When my husband come, he lived with his father and sister-in-law. They give them a bed to sleep. There is no privacy--in one room, the boys slept in one room and the one was married with his wife, he slept with his wife in the other room, but they were all together. She would do the cooking and they all eat together.

So when he was 19, then he was a little older, he got into business with his brother -- they bought a horse and wagon and they used to sell fruit from door to door. But they worked together. One day they would buy the produce. Next day they came around selling it to the people. They were like in partnership with each other. He was in partnership, but the other brothers were the same way as before. So when he was about 18, he was making a little bit of money. His married brother used to give so much money to him, a little bit of money. They would sell fruit, one (sold) bananas, one(sold) oranges, whatever they sold, and they would split the profits.

My husband, Grandpap, was thrifty; he saved his money. He gave the money to his sister-in-law to save. She was the banker. She would save it for him. She was honest though. She saved his share. Then when he was 18 he decides he was going to see his mother, he came here when he was 12.......he told his brothers, he said." I am going to go back to Italy to see mom, It's been 8 years that I don't see her, I want to go see her." His brothers say "Why do you want to go see her? You don't have to go. Why spend that money?"

It didn't cost that much money then, maybe 100 dollars to go back and forth on a boat. So each month, every month he used to write to his mother, sending maybe 5 dollars, maybe 10 dollars. So when he decided to go (to Italy) he wrote to her, he says "Dear mom, I am coming to Italy. I want to see you again." Maybe someday, something happen to her and he wouldn't see her again. When she heard he was coming back, right away she look for a wife for him. because he was in America without a wife. She knew that the sister-in-law was taking care of him, the brother's wife,-- she used to do the cooking, but he had to eat whatever she made -- his brother was running the house. So when he told his mother he was coming to Italy, right away she looked for a girl for him. So she knew my mother for years, they were neighbors. She knew my sister in Italy, she knew my other sister, she knew all the family. They were friends. When she heard that her son was coming, I was the only one home... They (my sisters) all come to this country. They all got married and left...So when she knew her son was coming, she said "Good friend (coumadi(sp?), my son is coming from America. I didn't see him for eight years, but he wants to come and visit me... and you know what I was thinking, It would be nice for my son and your daughter to meet and get married. My mother said, " My daughter, she is too young. My daughter's only 15....and he was 19. 18 or 19, I can't remember. And my mother told her, "I would be proud to have your son (as my daughter's husband.) But I can't make my daughter get married, she's too young" ....(They talked some more) and my mother said " I will let you know."

So my mother wrote to my brother in this country, my brother was single, see, and she told my brother because my brother used to be like a father to me.....my father died when I was 12. Well, he said, it's up to you, mom. You are there, I am here in this country, and I don't know anything about this boy. My brother was from Pittsburgh too. He knows the family, see. He lived on the southside of PIttsburgh, and they lived on the Northside of Pittsburgh. They got to know each other. Well, my mother got convinced that since my brother was responsible for us, my father died when I was 12, my brother used to send us money...We didn't have no man bringing us money. So my brother used to send us a letter with money every month.

So my mother got convinced and told her friend, "when your son comes, we'll see... We'll arrange the marriage(?)". So when he came November 19, the very next day, his mother brings the boy to my home.

So my mother told me "So and So, she wants you to marry her son.. I didn't even know her. Sometimes I would meet her in church. My mother and her used to talk outside of the church. When my mother started talking to her, I walked away a little bit. I was bashful. And I never even said Hello to her. So after they talked, my mother said "Why did you walk away from this lady?" I said "Why should I stick around while you are talking to her?" She said, "You shouldn't do that." I said, "I don't know this lady." My mother says " I want you to say hello to her." She tells me that and I say I am not going to do that. But she says I want you to say hello because she is a nice lady and she wants to give you her son. I say, "I don't want to get married." She says, "You got to get married sometime. You are young but he is young too." And I was 15. And I said,"well, I don't know the fellow." What could I say? If I insist that I don't want to be engaged, that I don't want to get married, my mother wasn't easy going. She was the one who ruled the house. When I said that I didn't want to get married, she was nice and said "This way your brother doesn't have to worry about us. He gives us money to live on." She started telling me the old story that if I didn't get married and he did, that his wife might not like the idea of him sending money to me. And then what are you going to do? In Italy, there is no place for a girl to work. In those days the only thing a girl could do was be a maid. She didn't want to send her daughters to be a maid because she was afraid, because a lot of girls got abused by the man of the house and then got thrown out." I would rather have bread and onions than have you go to work" my mother said. So she convinced me and the very next day they bring him to my house. He look at me and I look at him and we didn't say a word to each other. Between the mothers, they did everything.

My mother-in-law used to come and get me and take me to her home every day. To get to know one another. I was bashful. I wouldn't even talk to him.

Rose--Imagine a 15 year old kid

Grandma--You say to this girl, you marry this guy. After three weeks, they do everything. They arrange the marriage, they talk to the priest, so we got married. But he had to leave the country. When he found out that at the age of 20, he had to serve in the army, he didn't want to go to the army.....he was supposed to be a soldier. He told his mother, "I don't want to be a soldier. I want to go back to America." She said "if you wait any longer you have to serve the country." Then he was glad to get married and go. Then we got married and come to this country.

Question--How come his mother never come to the United States?

Grandma--She was afraid to go across the ocean.

Question--All those years she lived by herself?

Grandma--She had six boys and one girl. Same with my mother. After my father died, my mother was left alone with just me and she decided to come here, to come to America with all her daughters.

Question--It seems kind of strange, but I guess a lot of families must have been like that

Grandma--You know my brother didn't get married until I got married. My brother was so honest. He told his girl that he wouldn't get married until I got married. I got married in December and he got married in February. He got married though.

Question--There must have been a lot of women who didn't want to leave Italy?

Grandma--My mother was scared of the ocean, she was afraid....

Rose--I think a lot of men would have had women over here, don't you think?

Grandma--Probably they just fool around. Some left their wife for good.

Question--What could a woman do if her husband came over here and her husband never sent her any money?

Grandma--Make a living being a maid. Sometimes a husband would come over here leaving his wife with one child and he forgot about his wife. (Example--she talked about someone she knew who married a Sicilian man who had a wife in Sicily, he left her over there and never went back--they don't care whether or not you are married, the laws were different. The first wife would have liked to come over here and stab him with a knife. She couldn't do nothing because he left her, abandoned her over there with one child and married somebody else.)

Rose--So if you got married in Europe you could come here and get married again?

Grandma--Those days you could.

Question--Why did so many of these men leave Italy?

Grandma--They left Italy because Italy was very poor, there was no work. Everybody think America was new and everybody is going to America, to make a fortune, to better themselves. A lot of men didn't. My father came to this country, he came to work in this country. He went to live in Columbus, Ohio but my father, I don't know if he ever had any woman. He always wrote to my mother and...

Question--It seems funny to me that in an Italian family where the man usually wears the pants, that you couldn't force her to come to the United States?

Grandma--What could you do, they just left her over there at the mercy of God. But that's how they came. My father came back (to Sicily) about three times. Every time he came back he left my mother pregnant with another child. He got disgusted and went back to America. The last time my mother got pregnant with me, my father told my mother, "this time I am not going to come back in two years."

Question-- None of them came from Rome? All of them were from Sicily?

Grandma....No, they were born in Sicily, all of my relations are from Sicily.

Question--I guess people didn't move around much in those days?

Grandma--He was young when he came to this country because things were so bad in Italy, you couldn't make a living.

Rose--Wasn't your father a fisherman?

Grandma--Yeah, he was on a boat

Larry--All your sisters and brother came over here?

Grandma--Yeah, they got married and come to this country. Everybody came here. Everybody got married and came to Pittsburgh. Some got married, one got married and went to Chicago with her mother-in-law, one went to Buffalo, New York, but then later on, they correspond to each other, you know, and they got together and they all came to Pittsburgh. They all settled in Pittsburgh.

Rose--Was it your father or papa's father who almost drowned?

Grandma--That was my father-in-law,yeah papa's father.

Rose--What happened to him?

Grandma--When he came to this country.

Rose--How did he almost drown?

Grandma--How? The boat hit the rocks on the high sea. Good thing it wasn't very far from the shore. Everybody jumped in the water.

Rose--I thought he was fishing when that happened?

Grandma--No, no. He wasn't fishing. He was coming to this country, him and his son,you know, Tom. So, when the boat hit the rock, it broke the side of the boat and it sunk.

Larry--When they were crossing the ocean?

Grandma--Yeah. My father-in-law. He came to this country and took his boy along. The boy was 16, so this boat hit a rock, some kind of rock, you know, and it made a hole

Rose--How far did he have to swim then?

Grandma--He had to swim, not very far. But then they had these little boats, lifeboats. Son went in the lifeboat. I heard that father and son couldn't find each other. My father-in-law though knew how to swim and he swim ashore. He took off his clothes because he knew that if he didn't have no clothes on he could swim better. He took off all his clothes, a la nude. And he swam. It just happened that it wasn't very far from the shore. So he swam and swam until he got to the shore near Naples and he swam and swam and he always told me the story. When he got to the shore, he was naked. He knew he was naked and he was ashamed to stand up, so he lay down on the shore, face down. You know what happened in the city when the people hear that there is a boat that sunk, so everybody run to the shore to see if there was any people they could save. This woman, he says was a rich woman, saw my father-in-law, laying on the ground, face down. She realized that he was ashamed to stand, so she went home and got an nightgown and she gave it to him. He kept the nightgown for a rememberance. Once a year on that day he almost got drowned, he would take the nightgown out of the trunk and say, "this nightgown saved me."

Rose--Well, how did his son make it back here?

Grandma--He couldn't find his father, but the father swam, but the boy started swimming too but he couldn't swim like his father. He couldn't find his father so he climbed on those--have you seen the boats with those steps? I couldn't describe it.

Rose--Was this a fishing boat?

Grandma--Fishing boat, no this was a boat that carried passengers.

Rose--Ocean Liner?

Grandma--Ocean Liner--They have steps. He climbed to the top of the thing.

Larry--Were they made out of rope?

Grandma--No they weren't made out of rope. The boy see everybody swimming and some got drowned so he started climbing these steps on the boat....The boat sunk but the steps were above the water. And he hang on to the steps. Somebody passed by with a lifeboat and picked him up and brought him to shore.

Question--He found his father?

Grandma--Yeah,then he found his father. The father was looking for the boy, so finally they found each other. But that was something. He always remembered the day, 1917 or something, that this boat sunk.

Rose-- I guess the water wasn't cold?

Grandma--South of Italy the water is warm, like South Carolina. This was off Naples,yeah. Naples is near Sicily. Sicily is a warm climate. I always remember that my father-in-law, when I was, engaged, he showed me the nightgown and he said, "See this nightgown. The night gown saved me from embarassment. This lady."

Question--So what did your father come over here for?

Grandma--Fruit Business. What could they do when they didn't have the language.

Question--I thought in Italy, he was a fisherman.

Grandma--Yeah, but over here he had to stand in the market. I didn't get to talk to my father. My father died when I was young, but when I come to this country, my brother-in-law told me what kind of business my father had. He said (my father) had a stand in the market. But he wasn't making good, because them days it was cold. The market house was on the outside. They didn't have a building, many of times he didn't have to stand because it was cold, the fruit would be freezing. He couldn't sell it.

Question--I wonder why they picked Columbus?

Grandma--He went to Columbus, Ohio because this cousin was there. When my cousin came, she was married, he was just married and they came to this country and so my father moved in with them.

Question--Grandpap's father went to Columbus, too?

Grandma--No, he came to Pittsburgh. So after my sisters got married and came to Pittsburgh, my father came to Pittsburgh to see them, to visit, you know. He stayed in Pittsburgh. My oldest sister told my father, "dad why don't you stay here with us? In Columbus, you don't have nobody over there." All of his kids were in Pittsburgh. The girls when they got married, they come to Pittsburgh. My brother was in Pittsburgh. Even my brother didn't want to stay in Columbus. When my father sent for my brother, well, he came to Pittsburgh first to visit my oldest sister. Then my father told him to come back to Columbus and stay with him, but when he went to Columbus, he didn't like it so he came to Pittsburgh. My father let him go. He said, " if you don't like it here, then go to Pittsburgh."

Question--How long did your mother live?

Grandma--My father died pretty young. He died at 55. When my mother come over here, I guess she was in her 60's. She lived to be 72. She lived with us. Grandpap told her, said to her "come and live with us."

Question--Did his mother die?

Grandma--His mother died in Italy. Well, she wasn't very old. She must have been in her sixties.

Rose--What about your grandfather?

Grandma--My grandfather was old, lived to about 72, 75. He lived with my mother. My mother took him in after my grandmother died, you know, my grandfather came to live with us. Over there when you had relations, you take them in. My grandpap was like my own father cause I didn't know my father.

Question--That's quite a long time then?

Grandma--Yeah, he lived to be an old man. I remember him. Maybe I was about 5 years old when he died..

L.--What was his name?

Grandma--My grandpap. His name was Michael Bova. Not related at all to Jennie Bova. I asked my mother one time, after my sister got married to her husband, his name was Bova.

Rose--What was her maiden name?

Grandma--His name was La Manna. My mother's name was Bova. My father was La Manna.

Question--How is Jennie related to you?

Grandma--Because she is the daughter to my sister. Her(sister's) husband was Bova, see. Her father was Bova but.. She is only my sister's daughter.

Rose--She never changed her name then? Her maiden name was Bova, oh no, that's right, her maiden name was La Manna.

Grandma--She(sister) changed it to Bova when she got married.

Question--You didn't know your grandmother?

Grandma--No, She died when I was a small girl.

Question--Your father's parents?

Grandma--My father was an orphan when he was three years old. She left a boy and a girl, girl was about 4 and he was 2. So his father remarried again, the sister grew up and raised my father, she was like his mother.

Question--You met her(the sister)?

Grandma--Oh yeah, I met her... I could make a book out of my life....One time Frank wanted me to do a family tree, but I couldn't give him much information much because I was the youngest of the family. I didn't know much about my grandparents and aunts and uncles. Before I grew up they were dead. If I were the oldest girl, maybe I would know them. So I give him an excuse and he wasn't satisfied. I said "what can I do, if I don't know them?" I don't know if he(my father) had any brothers in this country. I know he had one sister in Italy. He got married again, his father. I used to ask my mom, "mom did my dad have any brothers?" And my mother said she didn't know..... My grandpap(her dad's father) was too young when he became a widow, he had two kids so the poor man he figured "How am I going to raise these kids?" So he got married again. My mother told me that his stepmother used to feed my mother, like she was her real mother.

Question--During the depression, what was day to day life like? What did people do for food?

Grandma--The depression was bad. They had to work for food.

Question--A hundred years from now people will want to know how did they survive.

Grandma--How did they survive? They survived by scrimping, by being hungry, eating bread, spaghetti.

Question--What were your feelings? Did you feel that this was going to end? Or did you just live for the day?

Grandma--I was in depression in Italy, because I had no father and my mother was dependent on my brother.

Rose--No, mom, when you were married? How did you survive then?

Grandma--Spaghetti and bread....We hoped for the best, but it is slow. Maybe somebody got into business and they made good. Then somebody didn't. When I come to this country, my brother-in-law was working for the B&O railroad. He worked for 9 dollars a week. You make a living for 9 dollars a week. They had to eat bread and spaghetti, bread and spaghetti. I know those days. When they say "the good old days", I wish they never come.

Rose--But I can't remember ever being hungry, mother?

Grandma--No, you weren't ever hungry because your father was making enough to support the family. He worked in the produce yards.

Rose--How much was he making he making a week?

Grandma--His boss, Spragalli, he was a stubborn man. He wouldn't pay him by the week. He told papa, "you come and work for me"....His boss didn't even know how to read and write and he got in business and he didn't know how to write numbers or nothing. Everything he did(Spragalli), he did by memory. So he couldn't write. He was selling apples, oranges, bananas. He was trusting the people just like that. He couldn't send them a bill because he didn't know how to write. So my husband knew how to write in Italian, so he(Spragalli) says to my husband, "Will you come and work for me?" Grandpap used to work for himself, as a huckster. He was selling fruit,going from door to door, but we didn't have it very good. Because in cold weather, he couldn't get out, he couldn't take the fruit out. He used to go to the customers, order whatever they wanted and bring it to them in a basket because he couldn't load the wagon and go down and bring it to them. Go down in a wagon and he used to bring it to them. Well, it wasn't very easy to make a living like that, he wasn't making very much because things were bad and the weather was bad. He couldn't sell the fruit. So this man, Spragalli, needed a man who knew how to read and write. He knew papa from Italy, they were friends. So he came to our house and he told papa, "would you come and work for me at the produce yards, to sell fruit and to write what the people owe to me?" Say you sell 10 boxes of apples, they owe so much. So papa used to send the bill out. He knew how good papa writes and he was good at arithmetic? First he didn't want to go. He says, "I don't want to work for nobody. I want to work for myself." But Spragalli said, "Please come and work for me because I need a man who knows how to read and write. I don't how to read or write, how am I going to run this business, to the customers to whom I sell the fruit? He would think of everything and then he figured he was not making much money selling fruit from door to door. I can make more there. He started working for 10 dollars a week. Imagine 10 dollars a week. We had to live, pay rent, everything. So he went to work for him. Little by little, once in a while he used to raise him a $5 bill, you know. He would say, "You have been good to me, so he would raise him another $5." Until then, he was making a little bit better. He stayed with him for 30 years.

Question--What about buying a house?

Grandma--Yes, he bought a house by a bank loan. We paid about four thousand. He paid by the month, every time he gets paid, he have to pay..he loan us the money. We had maybe a thousand dollars. He would put money aside by scrimping and saving, put that on a house. Every month before he got home, before he would bring his pay home, he would go to the bank and pay, and the rest he would bring home what he had left. It wasn't very easy.

Question--It was kind of unusual in those days for people to own homes?

Grandma--Lot of people didn't buy. We rented a house for 10 dollars a month--was a dump. Some places if they found out you had kids, they wouldn't rent to you.

Rose--I thought they wouldn't rent to you because you had too many kids?

Grandma--That's true, one time I put in an application at the real estate, but what are you going to do with your kids? When I would be asked how many kids I had and I said three or four, ...many times they would say no. When I would ask about renting a house, I was told that the landlord didn't want to rent to someone with kids.

End of tape

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